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	<title>Comments on: Magick</title>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://openenlightenment.org/?p=262&#038;cpage=1#comment-1793</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 01:27:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://openenlightenment.org/?p=262#comment-1793</guid>
		<description>@Alex: thanks for the recommendations. I&#039;ll be sure to check them out.

Nishijima/Cross is the main English translation of the complete Shobogenzo, but those interested in some of the better-known bits (Genjokoan, for instance) have a lot of options. &quot;Moon in the Water&quot; is a good selection of the best-known fascicles of the Shobogenzo and is poetically rendered in English; Gary Snyder had a hand in the translation, I think. Zensite has this neat thing: eight variant translations of Genjokoan, and you can navigate easily from one translation to another within any given paragraph:

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Dogen_Teachings/GenjoKoan8.htm

The other huge collection of Dogen&#039;s writings is the Eihei Koruko (Extensive Record of Eihei), a huge volume of 531 Dharma talks plus other stuff, recently translated by Shohaku Okumura and Taigen Dan Leighton. It&#039;s not as well known as the Shobogenzo but wonderful, if often baffling. 

As for commentaries and essays, take your pick. One favorite of mine is the edition of Dogen&#039;s &quot;Instructions for the Cook&quot; with Kosho Uchiyama&#039;s commentary. It&#039;s been published under a couple of titles, most recently &quot;How to Cook Your Life.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Alex: thanks for the recommendations. I&#8217;ll be sure to check them out.</p>
<p>Nishijima/Cross is the main English translation of the complete Shobogenzo, but those interested in some of the better-known bits (Genjokoan, for instance) have a lot of options. &#8220;Moon in the Water&#8221; is a good selection of the best-known fascicles of the Shobogenzo and is poetically rendered in English; Gary Snyder had a hand in the translation, I think. Zensite has this neat thing: eight variant translations of Genjokoan, and you can navigate easily from one translation to another within any given paragraph:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Dogen_Teachings/GenjoKoan8.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Dogen_Teachings/GenjoKoan8.htm</a></p>
<p>The other huge collection of Dogen&#8217;s writings is the Eihei Koruko (Extensive Record of Eihei), a huge volume of 531 Dharma talks plus other stuff, recently translated by Shohaku Okumura and Taigen Dan Leighton. It&#8217;s not as well known as the Shobogenzo but wonderful, if often baffling. </p>
<p>As for commentaries and essays, take your pick. One favorite of mine is the edition of Dogen&#8217;s &#8220;Instructions for the Cook&#8221; with Kosho Uchiyama&#8217;s commentary. It&#8217;s been published under a couple of titles, most recently &#8220;How to Cook Your Life.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: haquan</title>
		<link>http://openenlightenment.org/?p=262&#038;cpage=1#comment-1792</link>
		<dc:creator>haquan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 16:28:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://openenlightenment.org/?p=262#comment-1792</guid>
		<description>Nishijima&#039;s translations of Dogen&#039;s Shobogenzo are said to be the best.  I have that on the word of an excellent magician as it happens.

Also, Brad Warner was a student of Nishijima and his book &quot;Sit Down and Shut Up&quot; is a good introduction to Dogen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nishijima&#8217;s translations of Dogen&#8217;s Shobogenzo are said to be the best.  I have that on the word of an excellent magician as it happens.</p>
<p>Also, Brad Warner was a student of Nishijima and his book &#8220;Sit Down and Shut Up&#8221; is a good introduction to Dogen.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://openenlightenment.org/?p=262&#038;cpage=1#comment-1782</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 14:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://openenlightenment.org/?p=262#comment-1782</guid>
		<description>@Haquan @Phil

Sojiji, the second Head temple of ther Soto-shu founded by Keizan Jokin (1268-1325), was initially a Shingon temple called Moro-oka-dera. Sojiji’s shingon tantric rituals have been kept within the Soto tradition and have actually helped popularizing the Soto school around the 13th century. A trip to Sojiji is sufficient to witness this fact. One may also check the book ‘Soto Zen in Medieval Japan’ by William Bodiford for a scholarly treatment of the subject.

I take the opportunity to mention that what we know as Soto Zen in the West is but a small branch of a much wider and possibly richer tradition. My problem with some of these individuals is that they tend to reduce Dogen’s very sophisticated thought to a few simplistic slogans. Their typical dogma is that “enlightenment is realizing that there is no enlightenment”. It sounds deep, but only reflects the fact that they are still waiting for Godot.

For a good treatment of Eihei Dogen from a man who knows what he is talking about, I would recommend &quot;The Flatbed Sutra of Louie Wing&quot; by Ted Biringer.

-Alex</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Haquan @Phil</p>
<p>Sojiji, the second Head temple of ther Soto-shu founded by Keizan Jokin (1268-1325), was initially a Shingon temple called Moro-oka-dera. Sojiji’s shingon tantric rituals have been kept within the Soto tradition and have actually helped popularizing the Soto school around the 13th century. A trip to Sojiji is sufficient to witness this fact. One may also check the book ‘Soto Zen in Medieval Japan’ by William Bodiford for a scholarly treatment of the subject.</p>
<p>I take the opportunity to mention that what we know as Soto Zen in the West is but a small branch of a much wider and possibly richer tradition. My problem with some of these individuals is that they tend to reduce Dogen’s very sophisticated thought to a few simplistic slogans. Their typical dogma is that “enlightenment is realizing that there is no enlightenment”. It sounds deep, but only reflects the fact that they are still waiting for Godot.</p>
<p>For a good treatment of Eihei Dogen from a man who knows what he is talking about, I would recommend &#8220;The Flatbed Sutra of Louie Wing&#8221; by Ted Biringer.</p>
<p>-Alex</p>
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		<title>By: Duff</title>
		<link>http://openenlightenment.org/?p=262&#038;cpage=1#comment-1781</link>
		<dc:creator>Duff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 06:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://openenlightenment.org/?p=262#comment-1781</guid>
		<description>@haquan &lt;em&gt;Couldn’t we consider that all meditation practices have a magickal aspect, or are a form of magick?&lt;/em&gt;

Yes, I think so. &quot;The path&quot; can be read through multiple lenses, one of them being magick.

Dry, technical vipassana develops powers of concentration, noting of precise experience, which also gives the practitioner abilities in hypnosis (noting ongoing experiences of others is a form of trance induction), ability to be calm under pressure, etc. All of these powers and more can be new attachments, diversions, or useful tools.

Magicians get insight and monks get powers. And perhaps reality isn&#039;t so cut and dry that one is separate from the other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@haquan <em>Couldn’t we consider that all meditation practices have a magickal aspect, or are a form of magick?</em></p>
<p>Yes, I think so. &#8220;The path&#8221; can be read through multiple lenses, one of them being magick.</p>
<p>Dry, technical vipassana develops powers of concentration, noting of precise experience, which also gives the practitioner abilities in hypnosis (noting ongoing experiences of others is a form of trance induction), ability to be calm under pressure, etc. All of these powers and more can be new attachments, diversions, or useful tools.</p>
<p>Magicians get insight and monks get powers. And perhaps reality isn&#8217;t so cut and dry that one is separate from the other.</p>
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		<title>By: Travis Eneix</title>
		<link>http://openenlightenment.org/?p=262&#038;cpage=1#comment-1780</link>
		<dc:creator>Travis Eneix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 05:50:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://openenlightenment.org/?p=262#comment-1780</guid>
		<description>Meh, however you get there is fine by me!  It&#039;s even more fabulous if you leave a record for others to glean from.  

Alex, Duncan, I don&#039;t always like your stuff (nobody&#039;s perfect, hah!) but I really like where you&#039;re coming from and your stated intentions.  Keep up the great work, please!

(Pun intended.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meh, however you get there is fine by me!  It&#8217;s even more fabulous if you leave a record for others to glean from.  </p>
<p>Alex, Duncan, I don&#8217;t always like your stuff (nobody&#8217;s perfect, hah!) but I really like where you&#8217;re coming from and your stated intentions.  Keep up the great work, please!</p>
<p>(Pun intended.)</p>
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		<title>By: Duncan</title>
		<link>http://openenlightenment.org/?p=262&#038;cpage=1#comment-1775</link>
		<dc:creator>Duncan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 17:50:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://openenlightenment.org/?p=262#comment-1775</guid>
		<description>@Phil: Nice one! But just to be clear, I want to state my firm belief that Zen is - of course - a genuine tradition that leads to enlightenment.

Unfortunately it seems to be a commonly misinterpreted tradition, which has produced a lot of so-called Zen practitioners who go around stating that there is no enlightenment.

This, apart from being nonsense, is also not a very Buddhist position at all! Alan has previously &lt;a href=&quot;http://openenlightenment.org/?p=105&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;dealt in some detail&lt;/a&gt; with a few of the misunderstandings that can lead to this view, none of which need be regarded as specific to Zen.

As you seem to have proved, Phil, there&#039;s no reason why zennies shouldn&#039;t learn or profit from a little experimentation with western occultism. Although Zen can also function - of course - as an entirely sufficient system in itself.

@Haquan: I like your description of certain magick rituals leaving the mind &#039;without any place else to go!&#039; That really sums it up...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Phil: Nice one! But just to be clear, I want to state my firm belief that Zen is &#8211; of course &#8211; a genuine tradition that leads to enlightenment.</p>
<p>Unfortunately it seems to be a commonly misinterpreted tradition, which has produced a lot of so-called Zen practitioners who go around stating that there is no enlightenment.</p>
<p>This, apart from being nonsense, is also not a very Buddhist position at all! Alan has previously <a href="http://openenlightenment.org/?p=105" rel="nofollow">dealt in some detail</a> with a few of the misunderstandings that can lead to this view, none of which need be regarded as specific to Zen.</p>
<p>As you seem to have proved, Phil, there&#8217;s no reason why zennies shouldn&#8217;t learn or profit from a little experimentation with western occultism. Although Zen can also function &#8211; of course &#8211; as an entirely sufficient system in itself.</p>
<p>@Haquan: I like your description of certain magick rituals leaving the mind &#8216;without any place else to go!&#8217; That really sums it up&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://openenlightenment.org/?p=262&#038;cpage=1#comment-1774</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 11:29:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://openenlightenment.org/?p=262#comment-1774</guid>
		<description>@Alex: &quot;These Western Soto guys ignore the fact that the sucess of the Japanese Soto sect is directly related to its intensive use of Shingon magick rituals.&quot; I don&#039;t know enough about Shingon to dispute this, but it sounds unlikely to me. The Soto Zen group I practice with does pretty minimalistic rituals -- the emphasis is entirely on shikantaza. Anyway, Soto is basically Dogen, and Dogen isn&#039;t quite like anyone else. 

@Duncan: &quot;I think it would do our Zen trolls the world of good if they bought even some crappy Llewellyn book of magick spells and worked through it.&quot; For what it&#039;s worth, I&#039;m a Zennie who bought &quot;Advanced Magick for Beginners&quot; and immediately blew his mind after doing some of the practices and discovering just how bendy reality can be. Actually, Zen + magick isn&#039;t a bad combination (weird as it may seem), though there certainly is a habit among some Zen enthusiasts to do what you  describe -- negating experience on an intellectual level. (The tedious paradoxers who flip every goddam thing you say into a fortune-cookie-like utterances.) And magick certainly forces you to face your own experience. But if you read Dogen carefully you would be drawn to the same conclusions. The problem is that Dogen is very hard to read, and  the challenge of his writing makes people approach it as if it were philosophy, i.e., something to be figured out and applied on an intellectual level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Alex: &#8220;These Western Soto guys ignore the fact that the sucess of the Japanese Soto sect is directly related to its intensive use of Shingon magick rituals.&#8221; I don&#8217;t know enough about Shingon to dispute this, but it sounds unlikely to me. The Soto Zen group I practice with does pretty minimalistic rituals &#8212; the emphasis is entirely on shikantaza. Anyway, Soto is basically Dogen, and Dogen isn&#8217;t quite like anyone else. </p>
<p>@Duncan: &#8220;I think it would do our Zen trolls the world of good if they bought even some crappy Llewellyn book of magick spells and worked through it.&#8221; For what it&#8217;s worth, I&#8217;m a Zennie who bought &#8220;Advanced Magick for Beginners&#8221; and immediately blew his mind after doing some of the practices and discovering just how bendy reality can be. Actually, Zen + magick isn&#8217;t a bad combination (weird as it may seem), though there certainly is a habit among some Zen enthusiasts to do what you  describe &#8212; negating experience on an intellectual level. (The tedious paradoxers who flip every goddam thing you say into a fortune-cookie-like utterances.) And magick certainly forces you to face your own experience. But if you read Dogen carefully you would be drawn to the same conclusions. The problem is that Dogen is very hard to read, and  the challenge of his writing makes people approach it as if it were philosophy, i.e., something to be figured out and applied on an intellectual level.</p>
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		<title>By: haquan</title>
		<link>http://openenlightenment.org/?p=262&#038;cpage=1#comment-1771</link>
		<dc:creator>haquan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:32:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://openenlightenment.org/?p=262#comment-1771</guid>
		<description>Does Soto Zen do Shingon stuff?

I guess from the viewpoint of some Buddhists, the Tibetans in particular, the problem with magick is that it is future oriented and that it creates karma.  From their viewpoint, that&#039;s probably how it works - you are creating karmic traces or seeds in ritual.

On the other hand, they don&#039;t hesitate to create karma to realize enlightenment.  Most of Tantra seems to be magick rituals for the purpose of creating enlightenment.  I suppose one could keep at that in terms of making magick karma yoga - the intent being to wake up the whole world.

Miikka, I agree about both the positive feedback loop and the difficulty in finding decent literature on magick - though there&#039;s a bit more nowdays.  One of the interesting things about chaos magick in particular is the sizable portion of time spent not only deconstructing identity, but pushing or breaking boundaries, and deconstructing belief itself.  The idea of a magickal personality helps with realizing that our regular persona is rather artificial too - and even breaks things down into sub-personas.  Now what&#039;s the real practical interest in that?  Much of it really is about liberation.

Duncan, I think I heard about the one you mention - that sounds a blast.  And the point really is that it works - besides which, in what other tradition can you have experiences like that?  Hell, you can&#039;t pay for experiences like that...

... Until NOW - for the modest price of 2,500 US dollars plus expenses I will be happy to meet you in New Orleans, LA USA and liberate you from constricting belief systems, etc. in surprising and grotesque ways, like the ones mentioned above.  A signed waiver will be required.   Our motto:  We will liberate you no matter how much it hurts!  Serious inquiries only through Alan and Duncan. 
;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does Soto Zen do Shingon stuff?</p>
<p>I guess from the viewpoint of some Buddhists, the Tibetans in particular, the problem with magick is that it is future oriented and that it creates karma.  From their viewpoint, that&#8217;s probably how it works &#8211; you are creating karmic traces or seeds in ritual.</p>
<p>On the other hand, they don&#8217;t hesitate to create karma to realize enlightenment.  Most of Tantra seems to be magick rituals for the purpose of creating enlightenment.  I suppose one could keep at that in terms of making magick karma yoga &#8211; the intent being to wake up the whole world.</p>
<p>Miikka, I agree about both the positive feedback loop and the difficulty in finding decent literature on magick &#8211; though there&#8217;s a bit more nowdays.  One of the interesting things about chaos magick in particular is the sizable portion of time spent not only deconstructing identity, but pushing or breaking boundaries, and deconstructing belief itself.  The idea of a magickal personality helps with realizing that our regular persona is rather artificial too &#8211; and even breaks things down into sub-personas.  Now what&#8217;s the real practical interest in that?  Much of it really is about liberation.</p>
<p>Duncan, I think I heard about the one you mention &#8211; that sounds a blast.  And the point really is that it works &#8211; besides which, in what other tradition can you have experiences like that?  Hell, you can&#8217;t pay for experiences like that&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230; Until NOW &#8211; for the modest price of 2,500 US dollars plus expenses I will be happy to meet you in New Orleans, LA USA and liberate you from constricting belief systems, etc. in surprising and grotesque ways, like the ones mentioned above.  A signed waiver will be required.   Our motto:  We will liberate you no matter how much it hurts!  Serious inquiries only through Alan and Duncan.<br />
 <img src='http://openenlightenment.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://openenlightenment.org/?p=262&#038;cpage=1#comment-1760</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 08:45:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://openenlightenment.org/?p=262#comment-1760</guid>
		<description>Haquan, I&#039;m laughting about your large finger pointing to the moon - lol.

These Western Soto guys ignore the fact that the sucess of the Japanese Soto sect is directly related to its intensive use of Shingon magick rituals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haquan, I&#8217;m laughting about your large finger pointing to the moon &#8211; lol.</p>
<p>These Western Soto guys ignore the fact that the sucess of the Japanese Soto sect is directly related to its intensive use of Shingon magick rituals.</p>
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		<title>By: Miikka</title>
		<link>http://openenlightenment.org/?p=262&#038;cpage=1#comment-1759</link>
		<dc:creator>Miikka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 07:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://openenlightenment.org/?p=262#comment-1759</guid>
		<description>I am rather sure that I would have not begun the process of enlightenment without magick. Through magick I was able to, over time, to &#039;ask the right questions&#039;.

One important point I think is also that, in a sense, magick makes the whole process worthwhile when you are at it - a kind of positive feedback loop. When the process of enlightenment goes forward, the magick works better, and when magick works better, it supports the process of enlightenment.

Has anyone noticed how difficult it is sometimes to explain why you practice magick if that is revealed in some more &#039;mystically oriented&#039; circles? It is much more easier to find good information on Buddhism, for example, than good information on magick. Therefore, it is difficult to explain other people why you do what you when you when you can&#039;t quote some holy books or something like that. 

Fortunately the tantric yoga school where I take yoga and meditation lessons is rather liberal when it come to magick. Although that may be because there are a lot of tantric techniques that are actually simply magick.

haquan: that is an interesting point about karma yoga.


- Miikka</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am rather sure that I would have not begun the process of enlightenment without magick. Through magick I was able to, over time, to &#8216;ask the right questions&#8217;.</p>
<p>One important point I think is also that, in a sense, magick makes the whole process worthwhile when you are at it &#8211; a kind of positive feedback loop. When the process of enlightenment goes forward, the magick works better, and when magick works better, it supports the process of enlightenment.</p>
<p>Has anyone noticed how difficult it is sometimes to explain why you practice magick if that is revealed in some more &#8216;mystically oriented&#8217; circles? It is much more easier to find good information on Buddhism, for example, than good information on magick. Therefore, it is difficult to explain other people why you do what you when you when you can&#8217;t quote some holy books or something like that. </p>
<p>Fortunately the tantric yoga school where I take yoga and meditation lessons is rather liberal when it come to magick. Although that may be because there are a lot of tantric techniques that are actually simply magick.</p>
<p>haquan: that is an interesting point about karma yoga.</p>
<p>- Miikka</p>
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