Comments on: Doubting Thomas http://openenlightenment.org/?p=228 Fri, 10 Sep 2010 00:46:55 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Duncan http://openenlightenment.org/?p=228&cpage=1#comment-1553 Duncan Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:36:11 +0000 http://openenlightenment.org/?p=228#comment-1553 Oh Stuart, you tedious, monomaniacal rascal, you! I don't insist that everyone should have read everything I've written, but in your case I make an exception. I have very little faith, however, that you're more interested in what I've written than trolling this website... But here goes: On this website you should check out The Dialogue of Eris and Angelos, <a href="http://openenlightenment.org/?p=54" rel="nofollow">Part One</a> and <a href="http://openenlightenment.org/?p=64" rel="nofollow">Part Two</a>. (Clue: 'Eris' is my doubting part; 'Angelos' is my argument for pursuing enlightenment.) And there is the full record of my magical work (with Alan) that put me on my present path. As luck would have it, a good proportion of this is now available from all good bookshops in <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Saints-Alan-Chapman/dp/0956332102/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258364073&sr=1-4" rel="nofollow">The Blood of the Saints</a> and <a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Urn-Alan-Chapman/dp/0956332110/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258364073&sr=1-5" rel="nofollow">The Urn</a>. I trust you'll be putting some money where your mouth is! ;-) Oh Stuart, you tedious, monomaniacal rascal, you!

I don’t insist that everyone should have read everything I’ve written, but in your case I make an exception. I have very little faith, however, that you’re more interested in what I’ve written than trolling this website… But here goes: On this website you should check out The Dialogue of Eris and Angelos, Part One and Part Two. (Clue: ‘Eris’ is my doubting part; ‘Angelos’ is my argument for pursuing enlightenment.) And there is the full record of my magical work (with Alan) that put me on my present path. As luck would have it, a good proportion of this is now available from all good bookshops in The Blood of the Saints and The Urn.

I trust you’ll be putting some money where your mouth is! ;-)

]]> By: Stuart http://openenlightenment.org/?p=228&cpage=1#comment-1547 Stuart Sun, 15 Nov 2009 21:48:20 +0000 http://openenlightenment.org/?p=228#comment-1547 Alan wrote... > Funny that, considering Dunc is all about > doubting and questioning, and yet this is > *the source* of his suffering and struggle. This blog is titled "Open Enlightenment," and posts use this word "enlightenment" over and over and over. If Duncan really does doubt and question meticulously... wouldn't there be somewhere where he questions and examines *why* he's embraced his particular ideas about enlightenment? I've never seen such a thing, but perhaps I've missed it. Maybe you could point me to the place where Duncan has doubted and questioned his ideas about enlightenment, and his motivation for holding them? Stuart http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/ http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/booboo.htm Alan wrote…
> Funny that, considering Dunc is all about
> doubting and questioning, and yet this is
> *the source* of his suffering and struggle.

This blog is titled “Open Enlightenment,” and posts use this word “enlightenment” over and over and over. If Duncan really does doubt and question meticulously… wouldn’t there be somewhere where he questions and examines *why* he’s embraced his particular ideas about enlightenment?

I’ve never seen such a thing, but perhaps I’ve missed it. Maybe you could point me to the place where Duncan has doubted and questioned his ideas about enlightenment, and his motivation for holding them?

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/booboo.htm

]]> By: ellen http://openenlightenment.org/?p=228&cpage=1#comment-1527 ellen Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:41:10 +0000 http://openenlightenment.org/?p=228#comment-1527 And kudos for mentioning Thomas, a much maligned critical thinker. Poor chap has had a millennia of bad press for just doing what came naturally. And kudos for mentioning Thomas, a much maligned critical thinker. Poor chap has had a millennia of bad press for just doing what came naturally.

]]> By: ellen http://openenlightenment.org/?p=228&cpage=1#comment-1520 ellen Fri, 13 Nov 2009 18:30:17 +0000 http://openenlightenment.org/?p=228#comment-1520 As a fellow doubter, I'd say stick with your doubts. One of the blessings of this is that it becomes easier to accept whoever and whatever you might be, at whatever time, from whatever POV. UG had the right idea, "If you knew what this was you would not want it" A brilliant, forthright and grumpy old man. As a fellow doubter, I’d say stick with your doubts. One of the blessings of this is that it becomes easier to accept whoever and whatever you might be, at whatever time, from whatever POV.

UG had the right idea, “If you knew what this was you would not want it”

A brilliant, forthright and grumpy old man.

]]> By: Alan http://openenlightenment.org/?p=228&cpage=1#comment-1412 Alan Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:39:29 +0000 http://openenlightenment.org/?p=228#comment-1412 Funny that, considering Dunc is all about doubting and questioning, and yet this is *the source* of his suffering and struggle. Funny that, considering Dunc is all about doubting and questioning, and yet this is *the source* of his suffering and struggle.

]]> By: Stuart Resnick http://openenlightenment.org/?p=228&cpage=1#comment-1400 Stuart Resnick Sat, 31 Oct 2009 21:54:19 +0000 http://openenlightenment.org/?p=228#comment-1400 This topic of "Doubt" is wonderful and important. Metaphorically: we use our bodies during the day, and they naturally accummulate dirt. Then we shower with soap and water, removing the dirt, so our bodies are fresh and clean again. Likewise with thinking. As we use our minds, we accummulate concepts, opinions, and dogmas. Ideas/beliefs like: "According to the Bible, I've been saved by Jesus." Or "According to my interpretation of a Theravadin model, I got Enlightenment." Etc, etc... whatever the particulars, these I/my/me concepts cloud the clarity of our perception. Doubt and questioning is like the soap that helps us discard those superfluous concepts, and return to original clarity. Resisting doubt and questioning of beliefs is like neglecting to shower. It's OK for a while, but eventually the gunk builds up and starts to smell. It's no wonder that if you neglect doubting and questioning, the effect isn't warm and fuzzy; it's suffering and struggle. Stuart http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/ http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/booboo.htm This topic of “Doubt” is wonderful and important.

Metaphorically: we use our bodies during the day, and they naturally accummulate dirt. Then we shower with soap and water, removing the dirt, so our bodies are fresh and clean again.

Likewise with thinking. As we use our minds, we accummulate concepts, opinions, and dogmas. Ideas/beliefs like: “According to the Bible, I’ve been saved by Jesus.” Or “According to my interpretation of a Theravadin model, I got Enlightenment.” Etc, etc… whatever the particulars, these I/my/me concepts cloud the clarity of our perception.

Doubt and questioning is like the soap that helps us discard those superfluous concepts, and return to original clarity. Resisting doubt and questioning of beliefs is like neglecting to shower. It’s OK for a while, but eventually the gunk builds up and starts to smell. It’s no wonder that if you neglect doubting and questioning, the effect isn’t warm and fuzzy; it’s suffering and struggle.

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/booboo.htm

]]> By: Nathan Rosquist http://openenlightenment.org/?p=228&cpage=1#comment-1393 Nathan Rosquist Sat, 31 Oct 2009 00:02:56 +0000 http://openenlightenment.org/?p=228#comment-1393 Thanks Alan, Shortly after my comment above, I went for a long bike ride and my dread died a peaceful death. I guess I'd been reading too many zen stories about monks cutting their arms off and jumping off cliffs. Looking at the post you link to, I realize that I too have been holding onto this secret expectation: "Enlightenment – an event so incredible it cannot even be imagined – could be absolutely terrifying, and once it happens there is no stopping it. Will it feel like dying?" Thanks again. I really appreciate what you guys are doing here. Thanks Alan,

Shortly after my comment above, I went for a long bike ride and my dread died a peaceful death. I guess I’d been reading too many zen stories about monks cutting their arms off and jumping off cliffs.

Looking at the post you link to, I realize that I too have been holding onto this secret expectation: “Enlightenment – an event so incredible it cannot even be imagined – could be absolutely terrifying, and once it happens there is no stopping it. Will it feel like dying?”

Thanks again. I really appreciate what you guys are doing here.

]]> By: Pied Piper http://openenlightenment.org/?p=228&cpage=1#comment-1387 Pied Piper Fri, 30 Oct 2009 18:33:29 +0000 http://openenlightenment.org/?p=228#comment-1387 Maybe my comment fits into "well intentioned but bizarre". But this therapy stuff stuck in my head since I've read MCTB by Ingram; he states that therapy has done more for his psychic adjustment and functioning in the world a lot more than englightment. And as far as my humble understanding of this stuff goes, getting englightened doesn't cure you of your neurotic, let us say, karma. It may empower enormously your skill to see through it and cut it, but it still takes libidinal investment to cut the karma chains. I mean. I believe that the ordinary biological feeling of our body is joy. There's a will to live encoded inside here, a joyful will to create and destrouy (both are acts of aggression). And neurosis - I'm drawing on Reich and Nietzsche and a little on Deleuze & Guattari - is encoded in our body/minds socio-historically; it twarths this will to live, takes it against itself. It's all causal phenomena, it's all in the level of karma, thus I don't think englightment automatically changes this stuff and makes you less neurotic. Even because I think you need to take content into consideration to deal with it, it's a whole different approach. But I dunno. I'm not really versed in buddhist stuff. I remembered that ocidental esoteric groups used to demand that aspirants got through psychoterapy during the tutoring in the order. Wich means that englightment only is not enough? Being englightened makes you aware of the unconscious stuff? Even if it made - I don't think so, but I admit I don't know - we're talking about systemic stuff. Your unconscious assemblages are not "just inside your head"; they're in connection with the entire environment. Regarding this assertion, I like to bring the antipsychiatry methods of curing early psychosis: you have to work with the family, job, friends... All the system that sustains a certain mindstate and structure. I'm just digressing here. It would be cool, though, if Alan or Duncan approached this thematics. (: Maybe my comment fits into “well intentioned but bizarre”. But this therapy stuff stuck in my head since I’ve read MCTB by Ingram; he states that therapy has done more for his psychic adjustment and functioning in the world a lot more than englightment. And as far as my humble understanding of this stuff goes, getting englightened doesn’t cure you of your neurotic, let us say, karma. It may empower enormously your skill to see through it and cut it, but it still takes libidinal investment to cut the karma chains.
I mean. I believe that the ordinary biological feeling of our body is joy. There’s a will to live encoded inside here, a joyful will to create and destrouy (both are acts of aggression). And neurosis – I’m drawing on Reich and Nietzsche and a little on Deleuze & Guattari – is encoded in our body/minds socio-historically; it twarths this will to live, takes it against itself. It’s all causal phenomena, it’s all in the level of karma, thus I don’t think englightment automatically changes this stuff and makes you less neurotic. Even because I think you need to take content into consideration to deal with it, it’s a whole different approach.
But I dunno. I’m not really versed in buddhist stuff. I remembered that ocidental esoteric groups used to demand that aspirants got through psychoterapy during the tutoring in the order. Wich means that englightment only is not enough? Being englightened makes you aware of the unconscious stuff? Even if it made – I don’t think so, but I admit I don’t know – we’re talking about systemic stuff. Your unconscious assemblages are not “just inside your head”; they’re in connection with the entire environment. Regarding this assertion, I like to bring the antipsychiatry methods of curing early psychosis: you have to work with the family, job, friends… All the system that sustains a certain mindstate and structure. I’m just digressing here. It would be cool, though, if Alan or Duncan approached this thematics. (:

]]> By: Pavel http://openenlightenment.org/?p=228&cpage=1#comment-1386 Pavel Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:40:39 +0000 http://openenlightenment.org/?p=228#comment-1386 I think that it's kind of funny that as soon as Duncan posts something about having a hard time post-enlightenment and <b>learning from it</b> on here, everyone comes in with advice, under-researched analysis and other well intentioned but bizarre commentary. I guess that it shows fairly clearly what most of us expect and wish from enlightenment and why we find ourselves in 'the game' to begin with. Me included :-) But it would be pleasant if some of the commentators first read through the rest of the blog, had a look on dharmaoverground and other such places. I have always been of the belief that I can only advise (let alone help) if I have better (or at least equal) experiential understanding, or better information than the recipient. Otherwise it's hardly going to be helpful. Thank you very much Duncan and Alan for creating this place. I think that it’s kind of funny that as soon as Duncan posts something about having a hard time post-enlightenment and learning from it on here, everyone comes in with advice, under-researched analysis and other well intentioned but bizarre commentary.

I guess that it shows fairly clearly what most of us expect and wish from enlightenment and why we find ourselves in ‘the game’ to begin with. Me included :-)

But it would be pleasant if some of the commentators first read through the rest of the blog, had a look on dharmaoverground and other such places. I have always been of the belief that I can only advise (let alone help) if I have better (or at least equal) experiential understanding, or better information than the recipient. Otherwise it’s hardly going to be helpful.

Thank you very much Duncan and Alan for creating this place.

]]> By: Chris Marti http://openenlightenment.org/?p=228&cpage=1#comment-1385 Chris Marti Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:37:29 +0000 http://openenlightenment.org/?p=228#comment-1385 I suspected as much ;-) I suspected as much ;-)

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